LearningCurve...

[PalmWino]

Hi all, from a relative newbie, showing, I think, some naivety....
I've been playing around lately with overdubbing set-ups, and discovered a behaviour which may explain the frustrations I've been having with 'OneShot Sampler' (posted on the 'scripts' section).
I had assumed 'play' mode was what it says on the tin. However, record a loop, & let it 'play' with either output level, or feedback, less than 127, & it eventually will fade away, like it's a sort of infinite repeat echo!
Now I'm not familiar with the EDP, neither am I that familiar (yet!) with Mobius, but this seems a clue to why I'm having problems interpreting why my 'oneshot sampler' scripts aren't working!
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a complaint about the way Mobius works, just what I see as an insight into the inner workings. It's still an awesome piece of software (even more so since it's free), & that's the way it's constructed. OK.
So one of the problems I'm having, is understanding how the software operates, so I can write scripts to control it; I don't expect source code to be available (why should you release such inspired programming?), but is it fair to ask "Is it the case that 'play' mode is in fact a kind of 'overdub' mode, but without the input being overdubbed?" i.e. the recorded sample is being continuously re-recorded in some kind of buffer, rather than fixed in memory which is continually re-accessed until something is added, replaced or erased?
Now, has everyone else on this forum already figured this out? Or am I simply displaying my naivety?
Whatever, it seems I will have to include 'reset feedback level' & 'reset output level' type statements in any 'overdub' scripts if I am to maintain reasonable mixing levels, yet still be able to record what essentially would be backing tracks to improvisations over the top.
Am I making any sense here? Can anyone offer advice?
Incidentally, the best script I've come up with so far, for the 'OneShot Sampler', does everything but preserving the un-substituted part of the previous sample, so can still be used as a sort-of live manual delayed replay thing (??) is...

!name ReSampler

if mode == reset
Record
end

else if mode == record
Mute
end

else if mode != overdub
Mute
Retrigger
Overdub
end

else
Retrigger
Overdub
endif

OK, going away for a bit to have a rethink!

Dave Draper

[PalmWino]

Er, seems the critical setting is feedback level; a little more experimenting verifies this, ie, output level at 120, 110, whatever, will sustain the loop, but feedback <127 results in a gradual fadeout of the loop in play mode.
I think the next experiment lies in the area of feedback = 127, output level < 127; anyone care to enlighten me/shorten my learning curve here....?
Original assumption that 'play' mode is actually infinite overdub without input still seems valid. ???
Dave

[Jeremy Tranter]

Hi Dave,

On the EDP, feedback at less than 127 would reduce the volume of a loop each pass either in Play (not adding material) or Overdub (potentially adding new material). With the Repeater, feedback parameter would only affect the loop when overdubbing, not in Play. Using Sooperlooper you can choose either behaviour.

On balance I find the EDP way of doing things most useful.

In Mobius there are some additional parameters:
- Global parameters: 'Reduce Feedback During Overdub'
- Presets/General: 'Enable Secondary Feedback' & 'No Feedback Undo'

A longer loop will appear to diminish more slowly than a short loop. This is because the reduction in volume is per pass, not on time elapsed.

Output levels don't affect the content of your loop. Sometimes useful to have output levels of each track bound to a MIDI controller.

Regards

Jeremy

[PalmWino]

Thanks Jeremy. The Global 'reduce f/b when overdubbing' sounds like a useful one - hadn't found that yet!
I remember trying out the 'no feedback undo' one in connection with the 'one-shot' idea, but couldn't get the result I was after (can't remember what now!).
Realising the architecture makes a lot of difference!
Dave

[Jeff]

Sorry for the delay...

If you have feedback set less than maximum (127) the loop will decay a bit
each pass. If you don't want this then set feedback to 127. Output level
should not effect this.

While overdub is active the "Reduce Feedback During Overdub" is usually
on to help prevent overloading. You can turn this off but if you stack
several loud layers you will eventually drive the loop into digital clipping.

The other sublety is an EDP-ism in the way overdub is handled. The way we
talk about overdub it looks like a "mode" that you start and stop like
Multiply or Replace. But it's more than that. Overdub is kind of a "sticky"
mode that is remembered whenever you change modes and restored when
you end that mode. For example:

- record a loop
- turn overdub on, mode shows Overdub
- enter Multiply mode
- use Play to end multiply mode

Now you might think that Play would exit multiply and just start playing
the loop but what happens is that overdub is re-enabled since it was on
when you entered multiply mode. Play does not turn this off, you have
to use Overdub again to toggle it off.

I'm not sure I entirely understand what you want but I think you
just need to make sure that feedback is all the way up, input level is
set appropriately so you can overdub a few layers without clipping, then
if you need to enter overdub mode just remember to turn if off when you're done.

Does that help?

[PalmWino]

Thanks for your reply Jeff, & a HNY to you.
Yep, it helps a lot (especially since I'm not familiar with the EDP, but I'm learning more about it here!).
As for what I was originally trying to do (re: 'One Shot Sampler'), was to reproduce an existing hardware setup, involving the primitive sampler/delay, a longer delay/looper, & a JamMan. A typical use might be 4sec delay + 8sec delay + loop of, eg, 16 secs. But one way I use the 4sec jobbie a lot, is to set it to 'sample record'. Hit it & it records what I'm playing (on guitar); it'll sample as much as the memory (& speed setting) will allow, then stop. Hit it again & (with feedback at zero) it will record live input, whilst playing back the previous sample. Hit it in the middle of this process, (whilst recording input & playing back any previous sample), and it will retrigger. It plays the previous sample (ie what I was just then playing) whilst recording the current input, but when it gets to the 'retrigger' point, whatever is left from the recording before last (are you still with me?!), is still in memory, & it plays out to the end. This can result in some very 'glitchy' truncated bits of playing whilst this is going on, and then when it's left to play out, bits of sample from twenty or thirty seconds ago (depending on how manic I've been with the pedal in the mean time!)
Sounds complex, but in Mobius terms I was anticipating being able to record a 'loop' (or sample, if you prefer), then retrigger & 'substitute', (so it would play back previous), but still have any 'unsubstituted' original sample left in memory to play out when I'm done manically hitting the 'record/substitute' button!
Why? Well, simply because I've had this primitive piece of hardware for twenty years or so, & developed this crazy way of using it. Of course, it glitches (pops & switch noise) like mad, there being no sophisticated cross-fade function (!), but as a manually (pedally?) implemented extension of the guitar it's pretty neat, & doesn't offend other musicians in a live context nearly as much as 'loops' do sometimes, since it's instantly under my control.
Having said all that, whilst my motive for adopting Mobius was as a substitute for all this hardware, attempting to reproduce my setup with it was really only an initial exercise to help me figure out all its subtleties, and one which is slowly coming to fruition! My original 'one shot' thing might still be feasible, but I'm also trying now to encompass some multitrack extensions of the JamMan part of my approach. Certainly yours (& Jeremy's) posts have shed a lot of light on the way it's all put together.
Thanks again for the illumination, until the next time...:)
Dave Draper